In the interest of not depressing the living shit out of everyone by doing 10 straight days of Ferguson posts, grant me the liberty of combining two issues into one post.
1. Having read the grand jury testimony of Darren Wilson, plenty of commentators have already pointed out that there are some fairly obvious and basic questions about how plausible his version of events may be. I could go into similar detail pointing out the inconsistencies, factually inaccurate statements, and general eyebrow-raisers, but what jumps out most clearly is Wilson's account of Michael Brown's statements. When Wilson claims that he told Brown and his companion to clear the street, he reports Brown's response as, "Fuck what you have to say."
Does anyone on the planet honestly believe that this is what Brown said? Granted, during testimony one's recollections do not have to be 100% perfectly accurate to be credible. People are terrible, for example, at estimating – time, distance, size, crowd numbers, etc. – and a person might state something took 5 minutes when in reality it took 45 seconds without being a liar. Similarly, reports of what was said during a heated exchange can have some variance. So we assume that what Wilson really means here is, "Michael Brown said words to this effect." That is not uncommon in witness testimony. It is also a giant red flag. If Wilson is essentially ballparking it when recounting what Brown allegedly said, with what other facts was he playing fast and loose? We also know that he gave wildly inaccurate estimates of distance (the corpse being ~30 feet from the car instead of almost 150 feet). These two facts would suggest to any impartial observer that while Wilson's statements might not be false, they are at the very least imperfect. Subject to doubt. In need of additional investigation before they can be considered credible. You can't automatically assume he's a liar if his testimony isn't perfect.
Nor can you assume he's being accurate.
The purpose of a trial is to resolve that issue.
2. The reason conservatives can't stop bringing up irrelevant details (He stole cigars! His socks had pot leaves on them! You know They use those cigars to smoke drugs, right?) about Michael Brown is that they see the world very differently than…well, than intelligent people. To them, the facts of the case – what was said, who did what, when things happened – are not very important. What is important, as always, is making the determination that is central to their black-and-white worldview: good people vs. bad people. It doesn't matter if Wilson's testimony is accurate or in what order the events happened. What matters is establishing that Michael Brown was a Bad Guy.
buy fildena online buy fildena no prescription
Wilson is a cop and therefore Good, Brown is a Thug and therefore Bad. As long as the Good Guy wins and the Bad Guy loses, the details don't really matter. Liberals see the world as a series of questions that need to be answered; they see the world as science. Conservatives see it as good versus evil, as with religion. That's one of the main reasons that arguing is pointless. Brown is a Bad Guy, and therefore he got what he deserved in the end. Doesn't matter how.
That's one of the major reasons that it's so useless to argue about this with people who are eager to vilify the victim and saint the guy with the badge.
buy diflucan online buy diflucan no prescription
Lex says:
Are we supposed to believe now that Wilson put shots into Brown at 150 feet, with a pistol? It was my understanding that this was unpossible. I must be misreading something.
Major Kong says:
You might hit a man-sized target at 150 feet with a handgun but I'd say it's pretty slim odds. Especially with the standard police-issue semi-automatic.
I have a couple of expensive revolvers that might be able to do it but I'm not confident in my ability to hit anything beyond 50 feet or so with a handgun.
And that's assuming a situation where I had time to aim, not a high stress tactical scenario.
Freeportguy says:
Conservatives see the world in black and white: evil vs good, ie everything conservative vs everything that is not. Facts are irrelevant to them, hence the double standards on everything: rules apply to OTHERS, personal responsibility is for OTHERS. What is good for THEM is not for others.
That's why arguing with a conservatives makes YOU an idiot, for there is no point whatsoever you can drive home with these people.
bjk says:
My understanding was that Ferguson wasn't about the facts of the case but the lesson to be taught. Now it's all about the facts? Which is it? I thought the whole point of all these fake controversies was the lesson. "Don't worry about the actual facts, let's talk about white blah blah . . . " If the left wants to talk about the facts, let's talk about Brown reaching inside a police SUV for an officer's gun. Pro tip: don't reach for the officer's gun. If you do, don't expect to live.
jon says:
In Wilson's testimony, there is a bit about how Brown said Wilson was too much of a pussy to shoot Brown. What makes Wilson unfit to be a police officer, much less an armed human being, is that he is too much of a pussy NOT to shoot an unarmed man who questions his manhood.
Tim H. says:
Possibly not quite on-topic, but I suspect, given the Ferguson PD's reputation, that Michael Brown might've thought "Fuck it, I'm dead anyway, why not try for the gun?".
Nan says:
The only scenario that makes sense to me is that Wilson already had his gun out and intended to intimidate Brown with it — you know, the classic grab the kid by the shirt front and shove a gun barrel in his face — and Brown resisted instead of doing what Wilson expected, i.e., grovel with fear. If Wilson didn't have the gun in his hand at the beginning of the encounter, it would have been pretty difficult for Brown to pull it from the holster.
But it doesn't really matter, does it? The way things are going in this country, it doesn't matter if you grovel, argue, or attempt to flee. If a cop feels like shooting you, he will. After all, what's the worst that's going to happen to the LEO? If Wilson is any indication, if it's a high profile case, you go through a few weeks of stress, collect an outrageous honorarium from a major network, and then resign and (probably) move to Idaho.
J.D. says:
bjk: Um… both? The facts are very much in dispute, given that different eyewitnesses, including Wilson, claim different things. Is there a reason why we should automatically believe Wilson when he obviously has a personal incentive to portray Brown as the aggressor?
It's funny that you are asking "which is it?" when Ed's conclusion is that conservatives see the world as a yes-or-no question while liberals see it as a series of questions to be answered. But maybe you didn't make it that far before commenting.
c u n d gulag says:
And in NY, a Grand Jury decided NOT to indict the police officers who choked a large black man to death – for the high crime of selling "loosies:" single cigarettes.
When it comes to killing black people, our police appear to have been given “Cop Blanche.”
Skipper says:
However, the Ferguson prosecutor DID indict a cop. In July of this year, he indicted a police officer for striking a man on the hand with his baton. Of course, in that instance, the cop was black and the "victim" was white. What a difference skin tone makes.
http://ie.askmen.com/news/power_money/ferguson-prosecutor-indicted-black-cop-for-hitting-man-s-hand.html
Skipper says:
And let's not forget the California rapper with no criminal record who faces life in prison because the cops didn't like his album. No, seriously. Of course, he's black.
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/dec/03/tiny-doo-rapper-facing-life-for-making-album
John Danley says:
It's poetry in motion. Wilson blinded me with violence, as he turned his gun on me. As sweet as his partial jury.
Whatver says:
Also, Garner was selling loose cigarettes because they were soaked in PCP.
But seriously, Wilson might as well have testified that Brown said to his companion "Here, hold onto these stolen cigarillos so that I may properly break this pussy white po-lice-man's eye socket".
Skipper says:
And selling cigarettes with PCP requires summary execution. Got it!
Khaled says:
It will be interesting to see the result of the Tamir Rice case- the 12 year-old black kid who was shot by Cleveland police a few weeks ago- turns out. At this point, it would seem that it's open season on anyone who "looks scary" (i.e., black) to the police. Someone here (I forget who) posted a link to Rude Pundit once, and he's got a pretty good point in his last post. If you're a good cop, you've got to be pissed off right now, not just because your profession is being deservedly drug through the mud, but because anytime you make any kind of stop of any black man, there is a better than average chance that the black man will think that his life is in danger, and he will act accordingly.
And for crying out loud, can we at least decide that even if an officer does something that is not *illegal* that it can be at least considered *incompetent*? Choking Gardner to death on the sidewalk? Shooting a 12 year old kid? These are acts of incompetence. If you arrest someone on the suspicion of selling looseys (loosies?) and the guy dies, you've fucked up. If you respond to a "dude with a gun" (in an open carry state, no less) and you shoot the kid or guy and he has a toy gun, you've fucked up. Can bad cops at least get fired for being bad cops?
As for Wilson- two things come to mind. Anyone else watch The Wire? 1st season, shitty cop beats the crap out of some kid and causes a riot in the projects. His boss tells him that his story should be "he went for your gun", so he had cause to beat the shit out of the kid. Anyone else think that the "he went for my gun" crap from Wilson is from that? I mean, it's obvious big, strong Mike Brown got a couple punches in… oh wait…
Also, having worked in the hood at Chain Drug Stores for about 9 years, getting a cop to respond to a shoplifter is hilarious. Most cops give zero fucks about shoplifters. We've had to beg them to show up WHEN WE WERE HOLDING THE PERSON in the store. I've called in shoplifters and had the police refuse to come out to make a report. My personal , all-time favorite was when a cop asked me, as I was showing him the stuff that a woman stole, if a crime was even committed, after all, we still had our stuff, so she must not have left the store. I told his patronizing dumbass self that oh, she left the store alright, I just went and got my stuff back. Hell, here in Dayton, one of my assistant managers had a gun stuck in his face by a robber, and before my employee could give him the money, a customer yelled at the would-be robber, and the guy ran off. A witness knew where the robber lived- he was a neighbor. Did Dayton police follow up and catch the guy? NOPE! They literally did as little as possible.
I have to stop reading the comment sections after news articles on Facebook. I get too angry that people say ignorant, horrible, racist things, and it makes me sad that I share a planet with them.
MS says:
Wilson didn't shoot Brown from 150 feet away. He got out of the car, chased after him (probably firing a few shots at his back during this time, one of which may have hit him, in addition to Brown already having been shot once at the car). Brown stopped and turned around with his hands up. Wilson shot him numerous times from about 30 feet away, Brown staggered forward and took a few more shots to his face and head, and dropped dead maybe 20 feet away from the officer.
Regardless of what happened at the car, Brown didn't come anywhere near Wilson after they left the car. Even *Wilson's* testimony agrees with this. Even *Wilson* testified that he ran after Brown and shot him from a distance.
That's the best composite of what happened, and is consistent with the testimony of ten or more witnesses and forensics.
I have no idea what the above PCP comment is supposed to be about; Garner didn't have anything to do with PCP.
Mo says:
That's why arguing with a conservatives makes YOU an idiot, for there is no point whatsoever you can drive home with these people.
I get too angry that people say ignorant, horrible, racist things, and it makes me sad that I share a planet with them.
So….just what can we do about these people?
Religion's no good – just make 'em feel self-righteous.
Education? Nope – they're dumb.
Social training in civility? Nope again – they imagine that being rude and crude is speaking truth to power. Plus, they enjoy being bullies.
What to do about the perennial 20% that forms a giant ass cancer poisoning the rest of society?
And especially when they become the police?
Anyone? Anyone?
Mike R says:
MS, the pcp thing is one of those truthy things, obviously a good police officer wouldn't choke someone without good reason. Why would someone struggle if they couldn't breathe, just submit, heck breathing is over rated anyway.
Whatver says:
Loose cigarettes are sometimes used as a drug delivery system. The PCP reference is from a dumbass comment I heard from some slack jawed rightwing idiot who felt that that would have justified Garner's death.
The Jack of Diamonds says:
So basically:
In New York, a policeman administered an illegal death penalty.
In Missouri, a policeman illegally administered the death penalty.
Brezzeblock says:
I just want to be clear: when a 12 year old boy waves around a toy gun (although one that looks like a real gun) on a playground, with no one else apparently around, it's OK for cops to roll up and immediately shoot him dead.
When Ammosexual Gun Nuts brandish their weapons at a a Starbucks, on the street, or at their local Adult Toy Store, if the cops can even be bothered to show up, they just observe.
Khaled says:
People sell loose cigarettes all the time, even in lower cig tax places like here in Ohio. Had a customer who sold them 2 for $1 at the bus stop while he was waiting for the bus everyday. Turned his $5 in to $10 everyday. Obviously he was a criminal mastermind.
waspuppet says:
"… people who are eager to vilify the victim and saint the guy with the badge."
Until, of course, that cop and/or his union and/or his chief says "You know, we really need some serious gun control in this country." Then, of course, he/they don't understand the real issues at stake.
mothra says:
Sometimes you find that if you ask the conservative to put themselves (or someone they know) in Brown's shoes, it works. Of course, the conservative will bluster and say "I would never put myself in that situation; I would always obey the cop; I would never jaywalk, etc." You then press and say "really? You are CERTAIN you will never make a mistake or commit a misdemeanor–maybe go ahead and drive after having two drinks and get pulled over? CERTAIN you won't run into a cop with an attitude? ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN?" Usually they cannot say they are certain. Then you can proceed and ask if they would be okay with a cop shooting at them for their misdemeanor offense. Of course, if they insist they are flawless, it is time to walk away.
Also, regardless of the split second decision of the cops in Cleveland to kill a 12-year old kid, I have a question: WHAT THE FUCK ARE TOY MANUFACTURERS DOING SELLING REALISTIC-LOOKING TOY GUNS FOR? Jesus, Mary and Joseph that is jacked up and yes, I had to yell about it.
Carl says:
"He went for my fun" is totally a Thing. There was a video going around a few months ago (can't find it now, will try later) where multiple NJ cops are actively beating the shit of a guy on the ground, and they shout "Stop trying to take my gun!" at him.
Carl says:
Found it. http://m.nydailynews.com/news/crime/police-dash-cam-video-exonerates-nj-man-implicates-cops-article-1.1701763#bmb=1
jharp says:
"WHAT THE FUCK ARE TOY MANUFACTURERS DOING SELLING REALISTIC-LOOKING TOY GUNS FOR?"
An excellent point. They do however have to put an orange tip(easily removed as it was in the Cleveland case) to supposedly make it clear that it is a toy.
I sold toys for 20+ years and recall back in the early '90's a company I worked for came out with a line of authentic looking water guns. Called it Real Stuff and I am not shitting you.
They sold like crazy until a kid was shot by police thinking the gun was real.
It is long past time to end the marketing of guns as toys. Regardless of how authentic looking they are.
sinned34 says:
"WHAT THE FUCK ARE TOY MANUFACTURERS DOING SELLING REALISTIC-LOOKING TOY GUNS FOR?"
It was an airsoft pistol, so it was designed to play war with. Of course manufacturers want to make those look as realistic as possible. That sort of shit is candy to an aspiring ammosexual, and I say this as a guy who owns four paintball guns. Whenever I drop by the paintball place, I'm amazed that they keep making bushball paintguns and airsoft guns look more and more like the real thing. I guess having a marker that flings plastic or paintballs at 300 fps isn't manly enough if it looks like a spacegun.
Of course, as a white middle-aged man, I could probably wave all my paintguns around in a packed playground and not get blown away by the police. i'm sure they'd probably show up and have a nice talk with me about how I may be worrying the local parents, oh and those aren't real guns? Sorry to bother you.
schmitt trigger says:
"As long as the Good Guy wins and the Bad Guy loses, the details don't really matter."
A message that most, if not all of Hollywood's blockbusters also convey.
Freeman says:
@ Khaled, I don't think the outcome of the Tamir Rice case will be interesting at all – which is why it's not receiving nearly as much coverage. The cop will fry.
Tim H. says:
Way back before Elvis got fat, it was no big deal for children to play with realistic cap guns, and cops didn't shoot us. At least half the problem is fear-struck bigots calling 911.
Xynzee says:
@Khaled: the kid resided in an "Open Carry" state? Really?
Well that unequivocally answers two questions:
A) What would happen if the ammosexual in question wandering around with his dick extension in his hand was anything but white.
B) Who "stand your ground" is really written for.
geoff says:
I feel like this Matt Bors cartoon puts it best: https://medium.com/the-nib/maybe-lets-stop-killing-black-kids-b765a96c7cdf
Full disclosure: I am not Matt Bors.
el mago says:
Yeah, well. Many informed and insightful comments posted here . . . too many to comment on. Couldn't begin to contribute to the stream/steam except to say don't buy into the bullshit, which doesn't say anything at all. Desculpame. It's late in Colorado.
Khaled says:
Ohio is open carry. We've had idiots around here show up at stores and burger joints packing heat. Middle aged white guys, of course. Which makes the bullshit shooting at the Walmart and in Cleveland so much more obnoxious. They were literally breaking no laws.
From what I can tell "open carry" is for white guys in the burbs.
Oh, cop apologists in Cleveland have already started whining about how tough the job is and how the little thug was threating people, blah blah blah. I really have to stop reading comments, cause some asshole actually posted something to the effect of "good thing they got that thug when he was young" or some other bullshit on either Facebook or a newspaper comment section.
Xynzee says:
@Khaled: $#!+!!!
@Robert: out of the evil that were the Shrub years there was a silver lining out of Bonsai (Howard) sucking up to Shrub. Your boy can do a gap year in Aus.
This is just a thought, hard yakka, but a thought: http://www.outbackmag.com.au/stories/article-view?352
Or even working in an Australian bar—min age is 18—in one of the major cities is pretty straight forward. Look up RSA/RCG requirements—about 2 days >A$200.
In 20yrs I can only think of 2 incidents of someone being randomly capped by the cops. One a person armed with a knife who had a serious psychological episode.
The other a Brasilian who had a really bad trip of some kind and got tased too many times.
Greg says:
The cop in Cleveland is being hung daily, as the cops reveal more and more damning information. Plus the well-timed Justice Dept. Report- the second in 10 years!!
Bill says:
I for one love that so many online comment platforms have moved over to Facebook comments.
When teatards post their violent, racist comments on newspaper articles and Facebook, Google their names and identify them and their employers. If the employer is a major corporation or a public institution, contact their HR or PR department and let them know that one of their employees is publically celebrating the death of a black child/using the n-word/etc.
"How can a public school continue to employ an assistant principal who publically states that he thinks blacks are subhuman?"
Be persistent, and if the employer is public/governmental and doesn't care to act, contact the local media. "Did you know that Lincoln Elementary Assistant Principal T. Tard has, on more than one occasion, publically declared blacks to be subhuman animals?"
As long as these idiots keep acting that like the Internet is anonymous despite the fact that they are commenting under their real Facbook names, they are easy to identify and destroy.