Taking the night off to continue reading Learned Optimism by Martin Seligman. It's not a self-help book, but I am learning some interesting things about psychology.
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I'm also learning what everyone who knows me already knows, namely that I am an extreme pessimist.
paintedjaguar says:
I don't know. Everything I've read about "positve psychology" sounds like the same old positive thinking/cognitive therapy BS dressed up in new party clothes. I know from experience that it's possible to feel some pleasure and appreciate positive factors even while in the grip of major clinical depression. But Learned Helplessness is the result of negative EXPERIENCE, not optimistic or pessimistic thoughts (and please spare me the bromides about how you can turn a negative experience into a positive lesson by thinking the right thoughts). I'll admit the possibility that people who are naturally suggestible may have better success at self-hypnosis, but basically I don't think it's possible to will oneself to believe something.
Research has also told us that pessimists make more realistic assessments of their circumstances than optimists. Now if somone wants to talk about concrete actions (not generalizations) that one can take to change negative circumstances, that's another story… but that's not what the psychiatry/therapy game is all about.
Scepticus says:
Pessimist, or realist?
Sifu Snafu says:
From the Amazon blurb:
"Offering many simple techniques, Dr. Seligman explains how to break an “I—give-up” habit, develop a more constructive explanatory style for interpreting your behavior, and experience the benefits of a more positive interior dialogue. These skills can help break up depression, boost your immune system, better develop your potential, and make you happier."
Oh, fer fuck's sake.
zebbidie says:
It is supposed to work because the brain is actually a great mess of semi-integrated learned processes and any one of them can be relearned (somewhat slowly) by focussed repetition.
It is usually rejected because people are absolutely convinced that their mind is (for better or worse) them, and absolutely integrated. Of course it is your mind telling you all this, and the mind's main function appears to be papering over the gaping holes in your perception of yourself (and of the world around you). If it can't rationalize a plausible story or make you forget it, it will dial up the unreasonable anger and you can storm away (happily leaving the illusion of self unexamined).
Not comfortable, but it appears to be (somewhat) true.
Of course neuroscience is notorious for conflating statistical significance with destiny, but the basics appear to holding up.
geoff says:
Well, we're going to need a book report young man! : )
ladiesbane says:
Positive thinking and cognitive therapy isn't for everyone, but that doesn't make it BS. Part of the problem of learning helplessness (based on past helplessness and quite real, unavoidable negative experience) is that it trains you to think any other sort of experience is not possible / valid / likely.
There is an enormous difference between the practical (prepare for the worst, work toward the best) and the cynical (can't win, don't try). Plus, even if life continually throws land mines in your path, being free from despair helps you better deal with them and get some pleasure out of life as you do.
For a lot of folks, there are clinical / biological aspects to depression that go beyond "you thought your way into this box, now think your way out of it". And some people only know how to get support / attention / affection by acting like Eeyore. But *being* Eeyore feels shitty. Trying not to feel shitty anymore is harder than it looks.
Anubis Bard says:
What's that old Russian joke? The Russian pessimist laments – "Oh, things just can't get any worse!" and the Russian optimist retorts, "Oh yes they can!"
John Danley says:
Never underestimate the positive power of negative thinking. Nix Seligman and pick up Ehrenreich's "Bright Sided" to restore your reputation for attenuating dopamine by all means necessary.
Rich says:
Seligman did the learned helplessness experiments early in his career. He became something of a hack latter on. There are associations between optimism/pessimism and immune function (also loneliness), but getting sustained changes in immune function based on efforts to change these states has never been demonstrated.
c u n d gulag says:
I'm Ukrainian and Russian, and we're extremely pessimistic.
We keep waiting for the Germans to invade.
Or, the French.
Or, the Mongols.
Or, the Tartars.
Or…
Well you get the idea.
When we see a glass with a clear liquid at the half-way point, we ask, "Hey, which one of you SOB's drank half my vodka?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!"
Hazy Davy says:
1) what ladiesbane said.
2) What c u said. (Half of my family is Ukrainian+German—guess how that happened— and the other half is Polish. Both are Jewish. It's my job to get us booted from THIS country, cause we've been here a few generations, already.)
Xecky Gilchrist says:
You're not a real pessimist until you say "I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist." Looks like folks have beaten me to that one here.
wittgenstein says:
I'm another long time reader warning you that a lot of people think Seligman's work is BS. See Barbara Ehrenreich's Bright Sided, for example.
Whatver says:
The idea that Americans must be happy is utterly psychopathic, but that explains so much so long as it is happiness at the expense of others'.
Whatver says:
When things are bad, and I say to myself, "Well, it could be worse", I am some form of optimist. When YOU tell me things could be worse, you're just a prick.
bill says:
Pessimism is a real drag.
mothra says:
Yeah, I don't know about that book. Sounds pretty impossible to me. /pessimism.
Tim H. says:
But a pessimist can be pleasantly surprised while an optimist is destined for disappointment.
paintedjaguar says:
@Whatver – "When things are bad, and I say to myself, "Well, it could be worse", I am some form of optimist. When YOU tell me things could be worse, you're just a prick."
You get the gold star.
Chicagojon says:
I'm a pessimist that believes he is a realist and that most people are idiots.
I think it's commonly called an asshole, but it works for me
Sharkbabe says:
Anybody who isn't a pessimist is simply not paying attention.
Monty says:
The happiest of countries — many of which are in Scandinavia according the latest World Happiness Report — have a robust combination of higher life expectancy, gross domestic product per capita, social support, generosity, freedom to make life choices and lower perceptions of corruption. By analyzing happiness data, officials hope to improve the world's social, economic and environmental well-being.
vegymper says:
Optimism/Pessimism shows a focus on the FUTURE, who has not yet come, so anything about it is a psychological projection, even when one does econometry based in statistics. The problem of our cultures is that we project too much on the future (What was that Lennon said about that?)
Quite another distinction is between happiness/sadness, that has to do with the actual feeling in the PRESENT (no need to explain them). Regarding happiness, see e.g. buddhist cultures, the extreme case being Bhutan, where they invented the concept of "Gross National Happiness" and are doing quite a work on an economy of happiness.
So, are you sad (a state) or a pessimist (a label)?
Aristaeus Stilton says:
I look forward to your comments on Seligman's book. Some flavor of "Learned Optimism" is the leading philosophy of so many higher-ed administrators, ('tis much easier to provide than an actual education), so I suspect you'll have some unique insights on this one.
Heywood J. says:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLQ2TIul8pI&feature=kp