I know better than to think highly of the intellectual prowess of the Average American, but I simply cannot wrap my head around the widespread skepticism and occasional outbursts against vaccination. To hear people, even some who appear to have a mediocre or better grip on reality, parrot the arguments of Truman-era water fluoridation conspiracy theorists is legitimately disturbing. If only America's unvaccinated mouthbreathers were smart enough to realize that as they walk around slobbering H1N1 in public places they are creating demand for vaccines in exactly the people we don't want to get them.
We expect Glenn Beck to be characteristically Glenn Beck-like (which is to say picking-corn-out-of-shit insane) when gravely warning his viewers that getting a flu shot is dependent upon "how much you trust your government." But Bill Maher is sharing similar nuggets of wisdom with his entirely different audience:
Gee Bill, people who write "u" and "ur" are in a marginal position to comment on the intelligence of others. Ignoring his efforts to cornhole the English language we see a viewpoint that is legitimately moronic but so common that it no longer merits raised eyebrows.
buy prednisone online www.mobleymd.com/wp-content/languages/new/prednisone.html no prescription
Whether barely sentient celebrities are on daytime TV rallying barely sentient housewives against autism-causing vaccines or late night hosts are dishing out Common Sense Wisdom about how vaccines are a government plot to poison you, this hysteria is perilously close to becoming mainstream.
I will not get a flu shot because ideally I shouldn't get a flu shot. I am a healthy 30 year old. Vaccines against epidemics like the flu should go to high risk populations (healthcare workers, kids, and the elderly).
https://www.health-advantage.net/wp-content/themes/mts_schema/lang/pot/singulair.html
But fewer people getting vaccinated means more people in the low risk population are being exposed to infected individuals. Thus more people who shouldn't necessarily be vaccinated seek it out.
buy amoxil online www.mobleymd.com/wp-content/languages/new/amoxil.html no prescription
Thus we increase the probability of seeing newer, more dangerous viruses for which Glenn Beck's viewers won't get vaccinated.
More likely, however, unvaccinated people won’t get sick because so many of their coworkers and neighbors will get vaccinated – i.e., a classic example of Free Riding. They consume more than their fair share of a good (health) without contributing anything to its production. When Mary J. Moron starts boasting about how she didn't get the poison vaccine for her kids and they didn't get sick, gently remind her that you assumed whatever risk and costs exist so that your kids wouldn't be exposing hers to the virus. When she responds with a pastiche of cherry picked and probably made up "facts" about the monstrous Communist plot to sap and impurify our precious bodily fluids, remember that she will outbreed you. Weep for the future of the planet.
https://www.health-advantage.net/wp-content/themes/mts_schema/lang/pot/elavil.html
Sure, vaccines carry risk. You know what else is risky? Not getting vaccinated. Americans aren't real good at thinkin' or math but it amazes me that they can't figure out which is riskier: taking a flu vaccine and accepting the 1% odds of getting sick or taking one's chances standing in line at the Post Office in front of a tubercular hillbilly hacking the contents of his esophagus in your general direction.
meh says:
If you get a swine flu vaccine or any other flu vaccine you're a moron. Its the fucking flu. On the health hardship scale it falls at "worse than cold, not as bad as a hang over".
Now I'm not suggesting people shouldn't get vaccines for real fucking viruses, like measles or mumps. But the god damned flu? Neither I nor anyone in my family, has ever received a flu shot. Flu shots are for fucking pussies. 1) You probably won't get it anyway and 2) If you do? Do what fucking normal people do when they get the flu, go about your day pretending like you don't have it until you actually don't have it anymore.
T H E E N D
ladiesbane says:
Most people can’t explain why they should be vaccinated, or how a vaccine works. Blindly complying with government guidelines doesn’t seem much brighter than blindly flouting them.
What irks me is that Bill Maher spouted off on this without even minimal effort to answer his own questions. If your “this demands dialogue” talking points can be answered with six minutes of research, you have just shown some low wattage.
Marx Was Right says:
I don't get vaccines, but not because I think they're a Commie plot to destroy our precious fluids. For one, I try not to contribute to the pharmaceutical industry in any way whatsoever, and two, animals are used in the vaccine-making process.
Chris "The Limey" Lewis says:
On the plus side, when a truly deadly disease comes out, the Right-wing and it's horde of idiotic supporters would be well and truly wiped out
jon says:
I don't eat meat (or fish or fowl,) but I think the animal rights reason against using vaccines is nuts, and I don't mean "good source of protein."
Also, the desire not to contribute to a pharmaceutical industry is equally nuts, since vaccines are pretty much the lowest-return investments those industries create. Risking a little whooping cough, meningitis, or tetanus isn't worth it just for spite.
I'm against pollution, but my power comes from coal. I'm against the Arab way of life, but I consume lots of oil. I don't like Hollywood values, but I watch a lot of films and shows. I hate the idea of authoritarian figures, but I'll still call the police if I need to. Just because I'm against something in general doesn't mean it can't have a specific utility. And in the case of vaccines and the pharmaceutical industry, the perfect really is the enemy of the good. I will gladly compromise when my health is at stake.
Undesirable Element says:
On the most recent episode of his show, Bill Maher spends considerable time explaining his reasoning for his anti-vaccine stance. His basic premise is not that all vaccines are dangerous; rather, he's saying that blind acceptance of health care guidelines is dangerous. I think he's being a bit panicky over a relative non-issue, but he's got something of an argument there.
Also, the mortality rate for the swine flu is fantastically low when compared to the regular annual flu, so perhaps taking the risk of dying from the vaccine (however low that might be) is unwarranted in this particular instance. Still, reducing his argument to the Twitter-byte that you've quoted really seems foolish on Maher's part.
Marx Was Right says:
jon,
If you think the animal rights stance against vaccines is nuts, that's your choice. It's wrong, though. I don't want to contribute to an industry that produces products using fetal bovine/calf serum, casamino acid, casein, lactalbumin hydrolysate, galactose, lactose, gelatin, glycine, chick embryo fibroblasts, chick embryo kidney cells, egg albumin, mouse serum proteins, monkey kidney tissues, and even human components.
Yeah, I'm putting myself at risk by choosing to "boycott" these products. Oh well, having principles is tough.
Congrats on not eating meat though. Good choice.
Joanna says:
"Yeah, I'm putting myself at risk by choosing to "boycott" these products."
You're also putting others at risk. And if you have kids and choose to withhold vaccinations from them for those reasons, you're putting them and their peers at risk, too. This has been borne out in communities that have seen an uptick in measles since the MMR vaccine scare. Unfortunately, this isn't just about you (or the animals.)
jon says:
Mr. Right,
I'm glad you have actual facts and reasoning (and know you are putting yourself at risk) regarding your beliefs. Still, I think you're nuts. My choice, your choice, but at least we know why we made ours.
I wish more people who disagree could respect each other, but since most people are stupid (which is different from nuts,) it's hard to differentiate those who decide things differently between those who blindly do as they're told and those who blindly do as they're not told.
Joanna says:
Of course this doesn't apply to H1N1 if you're in a low-risk demographic. My beef (har) is with parents who don't vaccinate (and child-care workers who don't get vaccinated,) because children are slobbering plague rats who can transfer disease to anyone or anything, especially each other. And the anti-vax parents are "educating" themselves with "information" that is "fucking wrong."
Andrew says:
@meh:
I believe they're worried about it becoming this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1918_flu_pandemic
Yeah, it's probably getting blown out of proportion as always, but your argument could be close to: "i don't wear a seatbelt, I drive around all the time without one and so does everyone else. quit being a pussy and take it off." Problem is that it only takes one accident to prove you wrong… at which point it's be too late to undo the damage.
MattK says:
I would like to point out that meh is an idiot. It may seem crazy because he or she is such a tough guy or girl but I'm macho like that. Sometimes I don't buckle my seatbelt to show how hard I am. Also I use real fucking hard language, just to prove that I'm a serious motherfucker. Additionally, bitches, I would like to point out that nearly all the currently circulating flu is swine flu. Shitcock. So unless you think that you're never going to get the flu again, you will get swine flu. Bollocks. That's how this shit works. Cocknuckle duchenozzle switchhitter asshat monkey banger aeroplane hangar.
Ed, you don't seem to be aware that swine flu is not the same as seasonal flu. It disproportionately affects younger people, unlike recent seasonal flu strains. You are not in a lower risk group (bearing in mind that most swine flu cases are mild so I'm talking relative risk). About half of patients in ICUs with swine flu don't have serious underlying medical conditions.
UE, "he’s saying that blind acceptance of health care guidelines is dangerous." He's a contrarian twit. The vast majority of people are not equipped in any way to make an independent, informed choice, including Maher apparently. If one can't figure this stuff out for themselves then one ought to trust the expert consensus. ladiesbane, ditto to you as well.
UE, again: Also, the mortality rate for the swine flu is fantastically low when compared to the regular annual flu WTF. This is not true. Data suggests the mortality and morbidity rate is roughly the same but skewed more towards younger, healthier people.
grumpygradstudent says:
Just wanted to defend Bill Maher. I don't care for his general paranoia about public health stuff, but his general paranoia about how fucked up our country is is pretty dead on. And he's funny.
comrade x says:
Can you even get the vaccine? Thanks to our wonderfully efficient free market system you can get some useless crap that thickens your eyelashes but there is a shortage of vaccine for something that can actually kill you.
Undesirable Element says:
MattK:
Roughly 5,000 people worldwide have died from the swine flu.
About 36,000 people die from the regular flu annually just in the United States.
MattK says:
UE, you are comparing apples and oranges. The 5000 figure probably represents lab confirmed cases while the 36 000 is an estimate generated with different methodology. In any case we are just beginning the first full flu season in the northern hemisphere where swine flu is the dominant strain. Kind of unfair to judge a race when some competitors get a 5 month head start.
See Effect Measurehere and here. Here is another Effect Measure post reporting on research that ICU admissions due to flu (NOT total ICU admissions) increased many times over this year in the Southern Hemisphere compared to previous flu seasons (they're flu season is six months out of phase)
Joanna says:
Meh, the flu kills and hospitalizes children, the elderly, and people with previously existing health problems at a rate that would shock you. It's the tenth leading cause of death in the US. In the case of swine flu, it's mostly children who die and are hospitalized. Yeah, it's just the flu…until it kills your toddler.
jon says:
The swine flu is most deadly among the healthy and young, not children. What happens is that the body kills itself by fighting that particular type of flu, and since the young and healthy are the most able to fight longest, they die much more often from such cases.
Which isn't to say Little Junior and Grandma don't have anything to worry about.
waldo says:
I share Meh's neuroticism in not being happy about receiving cultured germs via injection. I'm also wary of 'crises' and 'health pandemics' hysterically promoted by the 'balloon-boy media'.
Not that I'm a hardass about it, unlike my stance on war-mongering chickenhawks, insidious, greedy banksters, oil company execs and stock manipulators as well as ego-fed, never-had-a-punch-in-the-mouth-to-shut-up-their-right-wing-bullshit pundits, 'experts' and media whores.
And don't start me on America's gun and war fetishes.
Peggy says:
As a high school teacher, I gotta say that the "if you get vaccinated for flu you're a moron" position is certainly not universally applicable. I got it last year for the first time in my teaching tenure and had a much, much more pleasant winter because of it.
Last year we had to shut the school down due to student illness. Shut. The. School. Down. Over 40% of our students were too sick to come to school. We were kicking out 8-10 a day for being too sick to stay. This year we've already been exposed to a confirmed case of swine flu and I've had 10-17 absences a day for the last two weeks (out of my about 80 students, which is 10-20%). When I had it, I tried to "go around pretending [I didn't] have it" but that resulted in me passing the illness back to the kids and having awesome lesson plans like "Everybody please shut up, I have a fever" and "time for independent reading!" When a teacher is down the entire class suffers, and having a sub's no better. I get the great choice of going in fucked up on cold meds or sending in a sub and knowing less than nothing will get done. Plus i have to write a sub plan while fucked up on cold meds. It's AWESOME. I can only imagine how much better it would be if I were a health-care provider working with a high-risk population or a construction worker handling heavy machinery or a service worker in a hotel or restaurant. Unlikely my illness will interfere with my daily life there!
So it's entirely possible that you live in a world where only "fucking pussies" get vaccinated for actual factual illnesses that are actually a problem for people's real lives, but maybe you should back the fuck up and think about your position. Some of us have things to get done, and getting sick interferes with that, and we make a rational choice to avoid the illness by taking preventative measures. We are clearly a bunch of fucking pussies! Working with teenagers all day is a cakewalk! Any asshole could do it!! Thanks for clearing that up for me!
MattK says:
I have a crush on Peggy.
Mark says:
+! for Peggy! Flu vaccinations are mandatory in the military.
kiki says:
Mary J. Moron. Priceless.
displaced capitalist says:
I love how the people who fear technology are the first to run to it when they're sick. To assume that the vaccines are poison is to assume that germ theory is bunk, and thus every time a doctor cures a bacterial infection with antibiotics, it's not science that saved them, but FUCKING VOODOO MAGIC!
I wonder how many people will beg their doctor for antibiotics when they find out they have H1N1. "Oh yeah," they'll say, "the vaccines my doctor told me to get are poisonous, but the little magic pills she gives me are ok." Meanwhile their doctor (who's already been vacinated) will patiently try to tell them that antibiotics don't work on viruses. Dumbasses.
jazzbumpa says:
To assume that the vaccines are poison is to assume that germ theory is bunk,
Now that's just silly. Vaccines have mercury in them, and lots of other nasty chemicals. Recognizing the toxicity of anything is totally irrelevant to knowledge of germ theory.
I've had flu shots some years and not others. I hasn't made much difference. There are risks, and it's not idiotic to take them into consideration. I don't consider getting a flu shot to be a matter of civic duty.
Virginia S. Wood, Psy.D. says:
Wow.
Uncorked a right shitstorm there, didn't ya, Ed?
FWIW, I had the Salk (killed virus) vaccine and still got polio. As a survivor of an illness that killed and crippled millions and which has been nearly wiped off the face of the earth by vaccination campaigns, I can only drop my jaw & stare at parents who say they don't "believe" in vaccinating their children, but have saved their umbilical cords or some such crap.
KC says:
If I may diverge a moment – you mention flouridation in your post and I'm really curious why you think it's a nutto thing to believe it's not good for you. Everything that I can see points to it being unnecessary, ineffective and possibly harmful. What do you know that I don't?
Nan says:
Get the H1N1 shot, Ed. I'm seeing a lot of the research in prepublication at work, and it's pretty clear this is one flu that doesn't fit the usual pattern of killing old people and little kids.
For those of you worried about killing animals, flu vaccine is grown in chicken eggs. Granted, they're fertilized chicken eggs, but it's not quite in the same class as injecting chimpanzees with polio in the name of research (Jonas Salk went through a lot of chimps back in the 1940s and 50s).
MattK says:
"I’ve had flu shots some years and not others. I hasn’t made much difference." The plural of personal anecdote is not "data". And of course the swine flu is novel to everyone's immune system, unlike the seasonal flu, so there is more room for the advanced look at the antigens that the vaccine gives our immune system to be effective. If you can't be bothered to check out the relevant research or are not equipped to process them then you are one of those people who should just trust the experts.
Vaccines have mercury in them Yeah, so does tuna. If I could eat a can of tuna to generate swine flu antibodies I would probably do that. But yes, keep going on the mercury thing. I mean, the level of mercury in vaccines is small compared to our normal routine exposure in food and when mercury was removed from most childhood vaccines rates of autism (or whatever it is you think you're going to get) did not decline. This was tested in several countries at several different times.
Joanna says:
"I can only drop my jaw & stare at parents who say they don’t 'believe' in vaccinating their children"
I'm a nanny, and the stupid I hear from moms at the park would melt your face off. "Well, you know, you hear so much out there about how bad they are…" Then I have to keep mine straight while one of my employers explains her decision to not vaccinate (so many chemicals!) and how I should administer homeopathic remedies (in which she's "a big believer"} if the kids get sick. This is also a woman who won't say the word 'sugar' around her kids because it's bad for them. She won't SAY the WORD. "Okay Joanna so you know they aren't allowed to have s-u-g-a-r…the chamomile drops are in the cupboard…see you at eight!" LOL I love money.
jazzbumpa says:
The plural of personal anecdote is not “data”.
I didn't contend that it was. And ridicule is not rational discourse.
Toxicity is based on the total amount of the toxin in your body, and the half life of mercury in your liver is essentially forever. There are other toxins, and a variety of allergy risks in vaccines. Also, not all vaccines have killled virus. Sometimes its only attenuated.
And where are they manufactured? What are the quality control measures?
I do realize that the autism risk is for people 60 years younger than I: the infants exposed to multiple vaccinations who don't have a fully developed blood-brain barrier.
The thing unmentioned here is efficiency. Is there hard evidence that the H1N1 vaccine actually works? Should we trust the experts on that as well?
Cheers!
JzB the neanderthal trombonist
Joanna says:
"I do realize that the autism risk is for people 60 years younger than I: the infants exposed to multiple vaccinations who don’t have a fully developed blood-brain barrier."
There is no scientific evidence to support this. Speaking of rational discourse…
jazzbumpa says:
Lovely but of snark, Joanna.
What level of evidence is required for something to qualify as risk?
jazzbumpa says:
That's bit of snark.
meh says:
MEH.
Joanna says:
Plenty of evidence is required to establish risk. To establish risk, you have to demonstrate that Action A as ever caused Result B. I know that driving a car is a risk because car accidents happen all the time, they've happened to me, and I can find statistics on how often they occur. I can go out right now and wrap my Honda around a telephone pole if I want to. When I drive, I risk an accident. A leads to B.
When we say that 'there is no demonstrable link between vaccines and autism," it means that A has never, EVER been conclusively demonstrated to result in B. And we need these standards, because otherwise we're afraid of crazy shit and meanwhile diseases are eating us. Because by your logic, anything can possibly cause anything. Lots of American women eat spaghetti. Lots of American women get pregnant. Spaghetti causes pregnancy!
Correlation =/= causation.
displaced capitalist says:
Joanna: What's the philisophical term? "You can't prove a negative?"
You're fighting a losing battle. You're arguing that there is no basis for jb's argument. jb says "Prove it" and there you are. Stuck. It's the entire foundation of the birther/teabagger movements.
Joanna says:
You're right. And, like the birthers, the anti-vax crowd will not be silenced by reasonable answers. If Obama produced the "long-form birth certificate" today and handed it over to Orly Taitz, she'd claim he forged it. The anti-vaxxers claimed thimerosol was causing autism, so the vaccine makers took out the thimerosol. And they still didn't vaccinate. "Oh, now we're concerned about…chemicals…toxins…" You can't win with these people. Mostly because they don't know what they're talking about. Making shit up is useful like that, because once you've removed yourself from the realm of logic, anything goes and you always get to be right.
Then there's the thing about science, how it's usually used to prove that something IS, and not that something ISN'T.