This is relatively brief; I am wilted after a 12-hour day of being interviewed by all and sundry who cared to stroll by and throw a ball at the guy suspended over the dunk tank.
Doing his best Hillary Clinton impression, the President has seen fit to reverse his decision to allow the release of additional detainee abuse photos after intense lobbying by the Pentagon and Iraqi Prime Minister al-Maliki.* The latter issued dire warnings when informed of the impending release, stating that "Baghdad will burn," anti-American sentiment will skyrocket (is it low now?), and much violence will befall the brave men and women of our Armed Forces, about whom the media and public ceased thinking a year ago. The President bought into the Pentagon frame, concluding that "in fact, the most direct consequence of releasing them, I believe, would be to further inflame anti-American opinion and to put our troops in greater danger."
Here's the thing: I don't give a shit. That is not the point. It misses the point so entirely that it seems to arise from a parallel universe in which points do not exist and the native languages have no word for the concept.
The motivations of people who argue loudly against the release of these photos have nothing to do with "protecting the troops" or a sudden urge to care in the least about the levels of unrest among the citizens of Iraq. These people don't want the photos revealed because they don't want to see them.
It makes people feel guilty. It makes them feel responsible. It makes them feel stupid all over again for falling for the transparently idiotic rationale behind the war and the myriad excuses made to justify the methods used to conduct it. It makes people feel greedy, petty, and immoral to have voted – in some cases twice – for the people who are ultimately responsible for "enhanced interrogation" because they promised to cut taxes a few more times.
Tough shit, America. Look at the pictures. Look at what was done in your name.
At the conclusion of the Second World War, General Eisenhower demanded that military units stationed in Germany force German civilians to enter concentration camps and view the open pits full of emaciated corpses. It was a good idea. People should not so lightly be allowed to escape the feeling of responsibility, however indirect, for their actions. We cannot let this episode fester in the back of our collective unconscious, this series of mysterious, terrible things that happened and about which we know little. Make public all of the evidence, look at it, and feel like an asshole. Sweeping evidence under the rug provides the erstwhile war cheerleaders with far too easy an out.
That is, in my opinion, the surest way to repeat the entire series of events. None of the Great American Patriots who waved flags and chanted slogans like lobotomy outpatients as their heroic leaders greased the skids to war with undiluted bullshit should be allowed to escape the burden of guilt.
*Can we come to a consensus on whether or not this guy is credible? I don't care which one we pick, I'm just tired of the constant seesawing between taking him seriously and treating him and the entire Iraqi government with the polite condescension usually reserved for high school student councils.
Aslan Maskhadov says:
You make an excellent point here. I would add to it by saying that the photos would do much to destroy the "good guy image" of the United States. It seems rather simplistic, and naturally I am preaching to the choir here, but even after every dirty deed the US has been involved in from 1945 to the present, there is still this widespread idea that the US and its allies represent democracy, and that in any dispute they have the moral high ground. I simply do not know what more needs to happen to get people to be more skeptical of the US and its intentions.
Mark says:
I see your point that we should take responsibility for our actions and feel guilty about the crimes that were committed at Abu Ghraib. I think that Rumsfeld and the officers in charge of that facility should have stood alongside the enlisted-men who went to prison and admitted they were wrong for allowing it to happen. At the least an official public apology should have been issued. But I have to agree with the Pentagon that bringing this back into the spotlight would shatter what small amount of rapport that we have left over there.
The moment that the invasion of Iraq ended we should have started our public relations campaigning and nation building. Mismanagement from the Bush administration and events like Abu Ghraib took what should have become a civilian transfer of power out of the equation while we began fighting newly created enemies.
Moreover, the "Global War on Terror" will never be won by military forces, but by the peaceful cooperation of our peoples while respecting our cultural differences. The only way to win is to convince people that these organizations are truly working against their best interests – putting even more of these photos out there does little to advance our goal.
Also, keep in mind that most of those responsible for what happened are no longer in power/involved. And that they never felt guilty in the first place….
Mark says:
Aslan,
Maybe it's time that we started living up to that image? It might be a naive boyscout thing to say, but I bet that if it weren't just an image – we go ahead make it a standard – we would have a much easier time interacting with the rest of the world.
Bugboy says:
Yes, release those photos! Let's recruit more terrorists to the cause!
Seriously, we need to separate an emotionally charged issue from a rational decision, which is what good will come of it? And like Mark says, the bastards who perpetrated this on us will never feel "guilty", look at fucking Billy Kristol, calling for war with North Korea, the dumb fuck. He hasn't got a shred of conscience in his whole being to feel guilty with.
Besides, I think it's a moot point and they will be eventually leaked. Why the hell these schmucks thought it was a good idea to take pictures of what they were doing is beyond me.
Lastly, I am so sick and tired of hearing about American Exceptionalism. That is the biggest crock of shit we have foisted upon us and the world and the sooner we figure out we are no better than anyone else, the better.
I really think the people who need to pay the price for this dark era of our history are going to pay the price, or they wouldn't be in the panic they are in right now. Dick Cheney is dropping Freudian Slips left and right, I say keep him talking, and he'll talk his way right into the Hague.
There are crimes in our country's history no one paid the price for, we all know that. History is full of such cases. I figure we can count ourself lucky Bush didn't have a Napoleon Complex or that his brother Jeb wasn't actually president, or we'd really be in deep shit.
ladiesbane says:
When I heard that there was explicit photographic evidence of rape, specifically, I did worry about overseas service members. Obviously they are in high risk jobs now, but don't you think seeing such photos would radically increase the likelihood of random violence against them? And against us at home? Rioting is more than property damage, and doesn't hurt only those people who lined up to participate. I'm not saying that the photos shouldn't be released, only that it's appropriate to be cautious before inciting a riot.
I want trials a la Nuremberg, including execution of those directly responsible, followed by the public shaming of those who endorsed torture and other violations of our agreements such as the Geneva Conventions — but I doubt I'll see so much as a direct calling-out in the mainstream media. We can bitch all day about Cheney (despite his recent love-me-now-don't-lynch-me public appearances), but the U.S. needs to accept full culpability for its actions, and it must begin with holding accountable those individuals who ordered, approved, and performed acts of torture.
I don't think they will be held accountable. They are being protected from prosecution, and they are mostly insulated from riot and other violent acts. Even though we the people should be stringing them up, that will not happen until the denazification process takes away our Gameboys and NASCAR, and forces us to surrender our homes to those made homeless, and ships us overseas to assist in rebuilding the countries we casually destroyed. Which is also not going to happen.
But we were looking a LOT like Germany in the 30s for a while. If we had had a powerful, charismatic leader instead of a naive puppet…deep shit indeed.
Kevin D says:
I'm a soldier and someone who has served overseas and I have to disagree with you Ed and anyone who is for releasing these photos. We want accountability for what was done as much as anyone, but we also realize that we are still at war. The war we're fighting isn't Europe in 1945 with Germany reeling and the about to collapse. Instead we are fighting a resurgent Taliban in Afghanistan and trying to close the door on Iraq (a tricky thing to do). We're fighting a counter-insurgency war which is, in not so many words, a public relations war. I'm simplifying this because one could discuss COIN all day long. When ever we accidentally kill civilians it's a win for the Taliban (I use this term generically to describe multiple types of Islamic Fundamentalist bad guys) and they use it against us. The point here is releasing these images may feel cathartic and give us a chance to say "Bad Bush" again, but for those of us who are deployed it's a win for the Taliban. The increasingly web savvy AQ/ Taliban would easily incorporate these images in recruiting videos and use them to inflame the public and further what David Kilcullen calls "Accidental Guerilla Syndrome." The watered down version of AGS is normal Afghans, Iraqis, whomever who fight along side of the AQ/ Taliban not because of ideological reasons, but because of perceived wrongs by the Coalition, tribal allegiances (exploited by AQ), and affronts to their beliefs. Perception is very much key these days, if you caught any of General McCrystal's testimony yesterday he mentioned that the number of civilian deaths caused by Coalition forces had to drop because it was making the job of winning the war harder (along with being a very bad thing). I don't want to come across as elitist but it's easy to say release the photos when it doesn't effect you. We had riots in Afghanistan because soccer balls with the flag of Saudi Arabia were given out (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/08/28/world/main3211005.shtml), there were also riots following the Muhammed cartoon depiction by the Dutch Newspaper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons_controversy), and several riots over civilian deaths following Coalition Air Strikes/ Special Forces operations. Releasing these photos would make those riots look like a parade in comparison. Our base in Afghanistan was rocketed repeatedly following one of these incidents.
So yes what happened is terrible and disgusting and there needs to be accountability but the time isn't right. I'm all for having a full accounting of our sins, but not while we're at war and good people who are serving honorably are going to pay for the crimes of others.
Ed says:
Point taken.
When can they be released without compromising our objectives?
John says:
Let them compromise our objectives.
That's a callous and vile thing to say. But it is what has to happen. It has to happen to wake people the hell up. Give advance warning of it so our deployed men and women can batten down the bunkers and hunker down for a rough night somewhere safe, but it *has to happen*.
It has to happen because the only way the people who support this barabarism will understand *why* it is wrong is for them to see what the results are. There are far too many armchair warriors who fall for all of the jinogistic bullcrap about how these travesties were necessary to "keep us safe". Only when they are exposed to the cold, hard truth — that it not only fails to keep us safe but *puts us in further danger* — will they understand.
The wingnuts have been harping on the same line since the original plans came out — releasing the pictures will make us less safe! Don't do it!
And that's precisely the point. Yes, releasing them *will* make us less safe, *and it is entirely your fault*. These people, these nazis-in-training, must be directly exposed to exactly what sort of problems their actions create for us, if they are ever to be reformed.
Remember: Germany went right along with the Holocaust, right up until the point they were forced to look at the graves. Only when they were held down and forced to face the results of their actions did they begin to understand.
You can tell a child not to touch the stove over and over. You can tell them emphatically how much it will hurt and burn them. But they absolutely will not listen until you let them burn their hand on the stove. Once they realize it fucking hurts, they wise up and don't do it again.
Mark says:
"And that’s precisely the point. Yes, releasing them *will* make us less safe, *and it is entirely your fault*. These people, these nazis-in-training, must be directly exposed to exactly what sort of problems their actions create for us, if they are ever to be reformed."
Who exactly are these people? Rumsfeld? Bush/Cheney? The interogators? The Republican right? You are not going to convince any of them that they did anything wrong in the first place – listen to Cheney's "I'm not Evil" campaign he's been running. The photos are just not that damning by the standards of our society. They don't even BEGIN to compare with horrors of the holocaust. There are more embarrassing photos on Facebook.
Those societal standards are different in the Middle East and will create a rift where we are trying to build a bridge. Apologizing for the incident, vowing that it won't happen again and then actually backing up our words with our actions might be a better way to further our goals in that region. What we have going for us is that it hasn't happened again and our new leadership has publicly condemned this kind of treatment. We should build on this. As Kevin can vouch, cultural awareness has become a part of our training before deployment.
Let's recap… makes us less safe by providing insurgent fighters with a new recruiting tool… fails to convince the wingnuts that they are wrong, yet again…. gives the pundits something to argue over for a week and the party bases will rail against each other… what exactly are we looking to gain here?
Nick says:
John: you really think the wingnuts will be any less safe if we release the photos? The immediate consequence will be increased danger–to troops overseas. Not to fat midwestern conservatives. And if you think that any of them are going to feel the slightest bit of guilt over or responsibility for increased attacks on American soldiers, you're out of your mind. If those people had a conscience they wouldn't have supported torture to begin with. I understand that you want them to recognize the consequences of your actions but your mistake is assuming that they think rationally–if you or I supported a policy that demonstrably led to more soldiers getting killed, we'd feel guilty. They will write it off as necessary. The only people who would be hurt by releasing the photos are soldiers and maybe eventually (assuming increased recruiting capabilities due to the pictures) the rest of us, whether or not we supported torture. The idea of getting those responsible to feel guilty is as unrealistic as it is satisfying.
Aslan Maskhadov says:
If someone covers for what was done, it will continue to happen. Let us remember here that the problem isn't specific abuse, but rather imperialism and militarism. Once you have war, things like this are bound to happen. It is a natural effect of losing comrades and dehumanization of the enemy. If you're not working towards solving that problem, then you're really just polishing the brass on the Titanic.
Rape is a common part of war, during and after. Viktor Malarek rightly points out in his book The Natashas that rape which occured during the Bosnian war was a serious issue, still discussed to this day. However, after the war was over and UN/NATO forces swarmed into the area, a lucrative sex-slavery prostitution industry started up, where girls, sometimes underage, were raped as many as 1,200 times. The trade still goes on all over the world, and wherever there are imperialist military bases, you will find the brothels all around.
The point is that imperialism and militarism go hand in hand with the capitalist system, and if you don't look at the problem from that perspective you will never solve anything. The very fact that they are hesitant to release the photos, and that men like Cheney and Rumsfield can sleep well at night totally confident that they will never face prosecution, bears witness to the aforementioned fact.
The goal of a capitalist state, an imperialist state in particular, is to secure and advance its power, thus serving the interests of its ruling class. It is not about "human rights", "freedom", "justice", or any lofty, lovely sounding word that comes from the mouths of politicians or their critics. It's profit, plain and simple.
Kevin D says:
Ed, you make a good point because the War we're fighting isn't going to end tomorrow, two years from now, or possibly ten from now. So the question I'd ask is how can we have accountability without risking the lives of our soldiers?
John, I can't see the value in risking our soldiers lives to prove a political point or teach a lesson to an uncaring public. COIN doesn't allow us to batten down the hatches and just hold out while the world around us burns. That's what we did in 06-07 in Iraq following the Samarra bombings. You have to actively engage and interact with Afghans or Iraqis on a daily basis to make our strategies work. In some cases that means living side by side with them. I can completely understand that we need to expose the people who allowed these actions to take place and punish them, but I don't know if we're in a time and place to do this.
So how do we make these people accountable and when do we do it? Would closed military style tribunals be the answer? There of course would be the problems of these pictures being leaked but isn't that already an issue? I think a lot of people would like to see Rummy, Cheney, and the rest stand trial for this, but the reality is I'd think you'd find a lot of bureaucratic middlemen and maybe a token Colonel or two would fall on their sword but that's it. I believe we're looking for the bogeyman but, to borrow the phrase, only encounter the banality of evil.
Aslan Maskhadov says:
Uh yeah, hello there- "your soldiers"(what made you think they were yours anyway) are already in danger. They are in danger because they volunteered and wound up in an imperialist war. What is in the photos is irrelevant. Believe me, when it comes to recruitment of terrorists, it is likely that whatever has been described thus far has already been assumed, most likely exagerrated 10 times over, long before stories like Abu Ghraib ever broke.
The main problem here is the perspective that people living in a privileged country have. To you, allegations at Abu Ghraib were shocking and novel. To the Iraqis or Al Qaeda types, they were expected, perhaps even if such individuals had not yet seen and concrete evidence personally. Americans are used to growing up with this idea that the US is inherently good, and while it makes "mistakes"(like murdering a few million Asians in Korea and ex-Indochina in order to prevent their self-determination), it always has good intentions. Abu Ghraib seems like a shocking realization that America has slipped up; that it has somehow failed to live up to a human rights record that really never existed.
Yet people who have always found themselves on the business end of America's military, or perhaps US backed dictators, never had such illusions. The idea that American military or CIA personnel might torture someone is shocking only if one has some belief that the US is generally inherently good. Keep in mind that the CIA has trained secret police in dozens of nations in the art of torture, which was put to use by US-backed insurgents as well as infamous outfits like the pre-revolutionary Iranian SEVAK. They overthrew democratically elected governments. The US military mercilessly bombed cities throughout the world, without ever having any fear of accountability because of Good Germans like you who tend to only criticize wars when they go on to long, or pretend that those cruise missiles exploding in the middle of the congested streets of Belgrade are somehow only hitting military targets(FUN FACT: Missiles may, when working, be precision guided. Explosions and fragments are not).
You want "your troops" out of danger- tell them to desert before shipping out, or while on leave. GET BACK INTO THE STREETS and protest against Obama as though Bush had suspended elections and was still president. Stop hand-wringing and pretending that your moral cowardice is for the benefit of "the troops".
Mark says:
Aslan, what exactly are you proposing? That the way to become a nation of accountability begins by reneging on the oaths that we swore? Protest the civilian leader who has been preaching about transparency, accountability and a constructivist foreign policy? How does that make any of what you listed better?
I get that you are angry, and you are not alone, but I still fail to see how you suggest we actually fix anything.
Aslan Maskhadov says:
Let me ask you this- did you want someone who "preaches" about those things, or someone who actually does something about it? What I am proposing, is that "progressive" people actually show some principles.
Michael says:
I can't believe we sit around and debate this.
"Releasing photos of US soliders [insert atrocity here] will put our troops in danger!"
No, I'm sorry. Committing the atrocity is what put you in danger.
Tom says:
NO!!!! Don't fucking release those bitches! On a serious note, I'm a soldier and I'm going to Baghdad area in a few months, and I don't want to get there in a hornets nest. The release of the Abu Gharaib footage had a direct correlation with increased violence on US Soldiers and Iraqi civilians.
You liberals in dresses (as opposed to me, a liberal in combat boots) need to realize that releasing those photos have a direct effect on the lives of US Servicemembers AND innocent Iraqi civilians. Release them and thousands will die. Is it worth it? Not just a Hell No, but a fucking Hell NO!
Wait until we pull out to prosecute those who allowed this bullshit to happen. Don't release them when lives are on the line.
Tom says:
TO Michael:
I didn't commit any atrocities. So don't let the transgressions of a few endanger the lives of many.
ladiesbane says:
Michael, the "you" in your last phrase refers to "US soliders" [sic] and "our troops". Are you saying that every single member of the armed forces deserves to be treated as a rapist/torturer? You seem to think that violent anarchy is just and appropriate, despite the fact that the people who ordered, approved, and performed the torture will certainly be untouched.
Rioting also damages civilians. Is there a reason you want to see civilians, and soldiers who were not involved in torture, suffer for what strangers did?
The photos need to be released, and we need to deal with it. I'd like to see most of the troops home first, if that's possible — but I didn't want them there in the first place and have wanted them out ever since. But I don't want random violence, not against anyone. I just want to see the perpetrators and collusionists and proponents tried and the guilty hanged.
Mark says:
Aslan, it looks like this is the middle ground where we agree. To Obama's credit, at least he is actually talking this – we have to begin somewhere.
Aslan Maskhadov says:
Tom, what's going to put you in danger is that uniform you are wearing. Whether you are injured or killed has a hell of a lot more to do with the marksmanship of a patriotic Iraqi than whether some photos are released. As I explained before- they don't need these photos to hate you.
Tom says:
PFFT! Patriotic Iraqi? Where the fuck do you get this shit? Most Iraqi insurgents are really just broke down criminals.
You obviously have no respect for the uniform. That's the problem with hippy liberal douches like you. No respect. This country needs more liberals in combat boots and less in dresses (like you).
And you say: "As I explained before- they don't need these photos to hate you." How do you account for the SHARP increase in violence after Abu Ghraib? I don't you give a shit for statistics, but I know people that were directly affected by it. And if ONE fucking American life can be saved by it, then I'm for it.
Aslan Maskhadov says:
No Tom, you wear the uniform of a nation that waged an aggressive war against their country, and therefore they have a civic duty to drive you out. Waging a war of aggression, in case you didn't know Tom, was one of the principle charges against the captured leaders of the Third Reich during the Nuremburg Process. So when you think about it Tom, you're almost like a Wehrmacht soldier on patrol, never knowing when you'll face punishment at the hands of the Maquis. Neat huh?
And Tom, fuck your uniform. Yes that's right, I said it. It's just clothes, I once war that sacred uniform you love many years ago, before I left the States. And don't lecture me on courage either, seeing as how you are a representative of a force that attacks poor, third world nations with massive amounts of cruise missiles and bombs dropped from high altitude. Moreover, I am forced to limit my political activity in my new country because the regime here has a nasty habit of bumping off journalists and activists who get to nosy. And I don't get an M-4 carbine to defend myself.
As for your Abu Ghraib statement, that's something called a post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy- after this ergo because of this. By that logic, Westmoreland's comment that the US had reached the turning point of the war in Vietnam must have actually provoked the Tet Offensive. The point is, that if you were to read the US Army's own doctrine on insurgency warfare, the longer and more active an insurgency is, the more chance at success it has. Insurgents have been aware of this for decades, and thus they will always be seeking to increase their activity. The final debunking of your claim is that Iraqis were already roughly familiar with what was going on there before the US, and you, were made aware.
Personally I hope you'll survive, and hopefully intact as well. Because one day you'll look back on everything you saw, and you'll ask yourself was that worth doing it for the shiny medals they give you. And hopefully then you'll see America's real problems and realize that parasitic fatcats sent you on a deadly wild goose chase while they plundered your home. Enjoy.
Tom says:
LOL man, step away from the crack pipe. Sure I do enjoy being in the Army, but I'm far from brainwashed dude. For me the Army is mainly a paycheck, as it is for most soldiers, whether they admit it or not. I just have a good time hanging out with other soldiers, the espirit de corps and all that bullshit. It has nothing to do with patriotism, or the belief that Americans are better or our way of life is better (which it is to be honest, but I accept alternative lifestyles).
And your "debunking": where is your proof of this assertion? Seriously do you realize that A) the vast majority of Iraq is illiterate B) Sure they may THINK things like Abu Ghraib are happening, but it's an entirely different animal to KNOW.
Seriously though Aslan, you are a caricature of the typical peace nik. Long on rhetoric. The military is not the problem, it's the politicians. Don't blame us, I'd give my life to defend by brothers and the citizens of this country if I have to.
Aslan Maskhadov says:
Tom, you are most certainly brainwashed and you clearly have no respect for the Iraqi people. In case you never heard, many people went through the hell of Abu Ghraib and were then released, mainly because it was admitted that very few of the prisoners really had anything to do with the insurgency. So guess what happens when they go home? They talk.
Furthermore, I can't believe you haven't figured out yet that I am far from a peacenik. Every patriotic Iraqi has the right, if not the duty, to put a round through your kevlar. Compensation for aggressive war. Remember that word Tom? War of aggression- the main charge against the captured leaders of Nazi Germany at Nuremburg. Hell, the Nazis actually made far more effort to justify going to war in 1939, because they actually took the time and resources to stage a series of false attacks by Poland(Sender Gleiwitz incident, look it up).
The problem is indeed workers like you who serve under arms for the politicians and their businessmen masters.